Episode 39: What Employers can Learn from the Hermoso Kiss

The recent controversies surrounding the Hermoso kiss have prompted discussions surrounding clear workplace boundaries and expected behaviour.

In the latest episode of The SME Growth Podcast, Richard Buckle is joined by Andrea Miller to discuss the importance of setting expectations and boundaries in the workplace after the incident surrounding Luis Rubiales kissing Jenni Hermosa at the Football World Cup after Spain's victory. 

They emphasise the need for self-awareness, training, and clear work event policies to ensure everyone understands and respects personal space and boundaries. They also discuss the employer's duty of care, vicarious liability and share a couple of anonymous Christmas party anecdotes.

Get the most from this episode in the form that works best for you: watch the episode or read the transcript

Watch the episode

Want to listen later? Head to Spotify, the episode if also available to listen on Apple Podcast, and click here for all other available platforms.

Download one of our free ebooks

We’ve helped hundreds of businesses grow and have put some of our top insights into our FREE business growth ebook.

Download the ebook

Want to know more about how to drive leads using inbound marketing? Get our FREE “Intro to Inbound” guide today.

Get the guide

REad the transcript

Please note: Whilst all transcripts are double checked for accuracy, they are transcribed via Otter.AI so may contain errors.

Richard Buckle 03:17

Oh, good. So we talk about what we're here to talk about. So welcome to The SME Growth Podcast. I'm your host Richard Buckle. David Parry is away this week. So I have with me a guest this morning. Andrea

Andrea Miller 03:33

Miller

Richard Buckle 03:33

Miller. Decided on Miller. So we decided on Andrea surname just now. Andrea worked for us for work for Wellmeadow for

Andrea Miller 03:44

seven years

Richard Buckle 03:45

Seven years! Best seven years of your life probably.

Andrea Miller 03:51

That's another podcast.

Richard Buckle 03:52

That's a whole series, isn't it? That's a whole series of podcasts, so and used to work on all sorts of like HR related matters for our clients. Many of our clients still

Andrea Miller 04:03

yes, still work with me, still put up with me

Richard Buckle 04:06

Still talk about Andrea, where's Andrea gone? I was somebody yesterday, and they were they were lamenting the fact that they no longer?

Andrea Miller 04:15

Well, give them my details!

Richard Buckle 04:18

But you took the decision a couple of years ago to set up on your own, with our blessing and support. And so we thought today soon as Dave's away, we're talking the other day and I said I've got to get a guest on and last minute you very kindly subjected yourself to coming on here. And so we were we were thinking about what's talked about a new you know, we got on to the conversation of the Hermoso kiss which I'm going to be like

Andrea Miller 04:46

Topical current affairs

Richard Buckle 04:48

And I'm going to be totally honest here. Like I don't follow football really. I'm not a big football fan. The last time I was really interested in football, I think Peter Shelton was still in goal. 

Andrea Miller 05:01

Okay.

Richard Buckle 05:04

So that's gonna give a bit of context for where I'm at, I obviously do see the news. I knew there was something going on. But yeah,

Andrea Miller 05:14

Well, no, I mean, yeah, it's something that hasn't just obviously hit the football fans. And it's such a it's a real shame because actually it was a, it was a great final and I believe the Spanish team absolutely deserved to win. Although, you know, obviously, it was a great shame for for The Lionesses. But it's been completely overshadowed by this issue of broken down into if you think about it, yes, they are a football team. And that's what mostly we think of them as, but also, you know, this is a it's an entity which is can be seen as a, you know, should be seen as a business and is actually very much run as a the business. So, if you put it into that context, what you had is somebody very senior, the most senior person and male in the business, unconsensually, non consensually kissing a member of staff and employee at a work event very publicly. And the story that's, you know, that kind of repercussions of that they've come out subsequently is completely overshadowed really, though, the Spanish teams win, which is a real shame, but it's a real lesson for employers there as well. 

Richard Buckle 06:24

Because there was quite a lot. I mean, I didn't really, obviously saw the story, because it was huge, wasn't it? So the whole of you can't really you couldn't really not, yeah, you're gonna see it. And then there was, there was some kind of debate around whether it was right or wrong, and different people were weighing in on different things. And I guess maybe the lines were perceived to be blurry just around the fact that it was it a work event? Was it not a work event?

Andrea Miller 06:49

Yeah, it was very much so a work event. And, you know, that definitely has question marks over that have repercussions of what we can think about as employers and how we need to consider where things happen, and what we can, the way we can behave and so forth. I think firstly, you know, the big couple of big lessons there, or kind of topics that have come out of it. And one is ensuring that you know, where the lines are, and how to behave, not just as senior managers, which is really important as well, because the power balances there. So somebody acting like that, as a senior manager that gets kind of like they should know better. And also, you're putting somebody in a position of, can they complain? Because they're complaining about the most senior guy and look at look at how long it's taken him to resign, you know, I believe most other people have not been that, you know, kind of supportive, I don't think. But, you know, that happened very, very publicly, very well evidenced? And, you know, he's been, he's taken quite a long time, really to back off and actually put his resignation in. So, yeah, that's kind of, you know, we've got to think about, what are we doing then as employees to ensure that that sort of thing isn't happening in the workplace? And it's a bit of an extreme example, you don't genuinely get things happening so publicly in a business

Richard Buckle 08:20

I mean, it got me thinking about it when we're talking about it. And I was in a meeting yesterday where we were having a related discussion around this about him, and there was a particular employee, and she had mentioned to one of the business owners that in a previous role, she'd had an issue with somebody, and it was around how they stood by the desk. And in terms of like, you know, standing over someone when they're sitting at a desk, you know, I guess, personal body space, that type of thing. And it's things that maybe we don't tend to think about the maybe we should a little bit, even if it's, I mean, the landscape of work is changing quite dramatically, from a sort of an they had I put it a generational perspective. Well, and I think it's important to recognise that different generations have different expectations, and different social norms and actually understanding those is, is probably beneficial for everyone in business.

Andrea Miller 09:20

I think being self aware is really important. And unless us make people think about how their behaviour, how they're behaving, most people don't have a really, really strong self, a sense of self awareness, which is why you have to train Yeah, so the training really is really, really important. It's okay, you know, that example so so say somebody was leaning in on somebody else, that you might well not think about someone else's personal space because they don't care themselves. So they wouldn't care if somebody else was leaning over them. But the other person absolutely does. And they might feel really you know, dominated by that, threatened by it. Just uncomfortable, a bitt grossed out even maybe. So it's making people think about actually, you know, how do we behave and setting expectations really strong? Because actually, as you say, a generationally, it can be a minefield, because I think we're gonna, you know, yeah, chatter a little bit more about kind of how, you know, the, we've already mentioned work events, and what that used to look like, and what it looks like now, and there's sort of, there's a lot of pitfalls, but you can mitigate them. And, and in terms of, you know, how do we behave at work? You set the standards, Absolutely. And and also, you know, going back to that the FA President kissing his employee that sets the standard. Absolutely. And I don't think you know, that obviously couldn't be ignored. Because what you're saying is, it's fine for employers to kiss their female employees on the mouth, with having no relationship personal relationship with them without having any consent. It's and you know, I think most people would see in black and white, that's just wrong. So you shouldn't have to tell someone "No, don't snog your employees" but

Richard Buckle 11:10

I mean, some of this stuff it's a shame, it's one of those things where some do think some of this stuff seems like is should be common sense. I think the sad thing with that story as well, like you say, it totally overshadowed the achievement of the of the team and the women involved with something that is like it was yeah, it was unnecessary. And if and if that was in any other other setting?

Andrea Miller 11:37

imagine if it was, say a company award night and the MD planted a kiss on the mouth of the accountant who just won the award. Everyone would be surely *gasp*, you'd imagine, you'd hope anyway. Yeah. And that's no different. It's no different. Just because it's, you know, what they're employed to do is a physical job. So they are more touchy feely, there is more hugging on the pitch. Probably, you know, if you'd hugged her, just hugged her. That then would have been normalised. Actually in a workplace, as you know Richard, hugging isn't always welcome, is it?

Richard Buckle 12:18

Let me just clarify that. I'm not a hugger. I'm not at all hugging. Hugging is for wives and children. And wife and children I should say. I'm not the world's most tactile person.

Andrea Miller 12:34

No, certainly not.

Richard Buckle 12:35

You might get a fist bump at Christmas. That'd be about the extent of it. That's enough. Safe, you see, I've put my boundaries in. Everyone's got to know where they stand. 

Andrea Miller 12:46

Absolutely! You set expectations. Like, I'm never going to congratulate you with a cuddle.

Richard Buckle 12:53

Even though you might want to. bit i'll say no, it's inappropriate

Andrea Miller 12:55

All your employees to be desperate for a hug for years.

Richard Buckle 12:58

Well, I've got that I have got that kind of cuddly frame mahbe, but people think, you know, it's the safe, secure, you know, that type of thing.

Andrea Miller 13:08

He's a family man,

Richard Buckle 13:09

Yeah, so okay. So one of the things that we thought that we could lead onto in this and it is kind of topical talking about this whole area of boundaries and work and, you know, where, you know, kind of where, where do we draw lines and things like that is, and I can get away with this because Dave's away. So we can talk about the Christmas party,

Andrea Miller 13:32

Christmas party.

Richard Buckle 13:33

I know it's September. I know some people are going to be thinking what you doing talking about Christmas

Andrea Miller 13:38

Absolutely, stuffs in the shops and unfortunately, restaurants, places get booked out. So you've got to think

Richard Buckle 13:38

If I wasn't doing keto, at the moment, I'm back on the Keto. If I wasn't doing keto at the moment, I would have definitely bought some mince pies the other day when I saw them in the shop. It was August and I thought that's gonna be a record mince pies in the shops in August. And Dave, listen to this. I can already picture his face. In a he does not want to start talking about Christmas until December 26.

Andrea Miller 13:51

I can understand that.

Richard Buckle 13:56

So I snuck in a sneaky Christmas episode because

Andrea Miller 14:16

Hang on you were going to bring in a Santa hat

Richard Buckle 14:18

I was going to bring a Santa hat in but I forgot.

Andrea Miller 14:20

I forgot my elf costume.

Richard Buckle 14:23

So but anyway, we thought and actually, you know, no joking. Joking aside, I've had two conversations in board meetings this week already about Christmas parties, about behaviour at previous Christmas parties in some cases, which I will say left quite a lot to be desired. And we had a we had quite a quite a pertinent conversation 

Andrea Miller 14:45

Oh not your Christmas party!

Richard Buckle 15:07

Not our Christmas party. Wellmeadow Christmas parties are quite tame

Andrea Miller 15:07

They are appropriate!

Richard Buckle 15:10

No, sorry, with a client. There was those certain people evolved to behave in certain ways. And you know, that probably most people would deem unacceptable in a in a professional work environment. So we were having that conversation and saying, Well, you know, you've got younger people in the business now you've got people from a generation that don't have that same kind of, you know, I think if you're kind of a Gen X, or or Boomer, like, maybe some of this stuff, rightly or wrongly, comments, it's just like, maybe par for the course a little bit, or it's just kind of brushed off. 

Andrea Miller 15:35

A lot of the time it's wanted, it's welcome. Yeah, bad behaviour at the Christmas party. What happens at the Christmas party stays at the Christmas party? But it doesn't. No, no, because there are so many pitfalls, and there are repercussions.

Richard Buckle 15:48

Well, I think as well, our generation grew up. You know, we're at university, we didn't have smartphones, we didn't have every single piece of life that was documented.

Andrea Miller 15:57

Nothing was recorded

Richard Buckle 15:57

Thank goodness. But, but it's those, but nowadays, everything is you know, and that and that's, that's another thing to think about. And boundaries have changed, the generation of expectations have changed behaviour in the workplace has changed in many ways, in a positive way. Yeah. You know, nobody, I think wants to go back to the kind of 50/70s and all that kind of stuff and all that, but yeah

Andrea Miller 16:22

Photocopying and terrible misogyny.

Richard Buckle 16:24

So I thought, like, whilst, whilst I've got you coming on the podcast, well, that'd be an interesting thing to touch on, because it is relevant people will start to be booking their Christmas parties. There is that kind of like, you know, kind of what, I've always had a, you know, what's, what's our expectation, like, a couple of years ago, like, what are we supposed to do as employers, I remember a couple of years ago, we'd finished our meal at about 11 o'clock, nice restaurant. And I thought, This is great. Everyone's going home now. I can go bed, and I had an I had a lift home. And then a couple of you decided that you wanted to go to a local place in the evening

Andrea Miller 16:58

Oh, that year!

Richard Buckle 16:59

Yes, that year. And three in the morning, I decided that at that point, my duty of care was done. Like I was just like, right, this is it, I'm out is that not the year that somebody spent the night in a building site. Yeah. And then sent me pictures of it at 530 in the morning. Thank you for that. Yeah. So, you know, there's always that

Andrea Miller 17:23

That's one to touch on immediately, isn't it? Because actually, you set the expectation as employers that you were paying for drinks until you might have even stopped funding? I think you do it for the evening, don't you?

Richard Buckle 17:36

We are very generous

Andrea Miller 17:36

Nobody gets, I've never been to a Wellmeadow party where people will get, you know, drunk. People have drinks and have a good time. But it's not a you know, it's not a rowdy occasion, it's civilised. You've seen people go home at 11. You, you know, you kind of as an employer, you kind of you think your duty of care is finished there. Couple of us did go on somebody maybe went a little too far. But the problem is then he did come in for maybe an hour, half an hour, an hour very late, and then had to go home because he was absolutely useless.

Richard Buckle 18:15

We sent him home, yeah.

Andrea Miller 18:16

He couldn't do any work. So that's one thing, isn't it? If you are if people are going to drink in excess, what then do you do with them the next day. And that's something to set the expectations of as well. So there's lots that you can do now, it's only September, as we said, so you can plan for your Christmas party to mitigate some of the risks already. So start by setting expectations. As soon as you send out the invites or before then you know have so really important, I think to have a work event policy in place. Sounds a bit mad, especially to maybe to Gen X's who they used to, you know, it used to be

Richard Buckle 18:54

Just crack on.

Andrea Miller 18:55

Yeah. And we've all got, you know, lots of stories. And yeah, probably wish we don't have half of them. But yeah, we live in a very different environment now. And it is different at work. And they've got different considerations and people you know, have different expectations of how they want to be treated and the environments that they want to be in the culture that we created.

Richard Buckle 19:16

And this is this is really just an extension of your workplace culture anyway, isn't it and your workplace behaviour. So it's not something that is just linked into a Christmas party per se? It's it's part of a broader thing.

Andrea Miller 19:28

So your duty, as you said, as an employee, your duty of care doesn't end if you've got a work event. So Christmas party is an obvious one. Of course that's a work event is organised by the business. You're there because you are a part of the company. You are essentially representing a company so any work event is where you are representing a company there because of the company because you're a member of that company. So, to put it on, like the flipside if two people from work are mates and they say Let's go for a beer after work. That is not a work event. The company hasn't organised it, they haven't instigated it, that's happened because they have a personal friendship, personal relationship, which is different from the company saying, Let's go for Team drinks. And we'll put the first drink behind the bar for you. That's then a workplace event. And so you have a duty of care and the workplace is an extended into that event. So you've got the same considerations that you'd have largely in the workplace. And you know, the health and safety side is a little bit different, obviously, because different, actual physical environment. But you've got to think about, you know, you still have a duty of care to protect your staff from harassment, bullying, discrimination, and you can be vicariously liable for their actions as well,

Richard Buckle 20:50

that sounds like a big word. What does that mean?

Andrea Miller 20:53

It means that you can get it done that they do. As it can in the workplace but you can mitigate it, obviously.

Richard Buckle 21:03

So how would you go about? What what could what practically could someone do a business owner or someone? Now listening to this thinking, Okay, we've got a work party coming up?

Andrea Miller 21:15

Other than cancelling it?

Richard Buckle 21:18

Just what what can people do?

Andrea Miller 21:20

So for, as I said, but a work event policies are very good idea. Most businesses, and if you don't, you should do have some sort of code of conduct. So something about how you expect people to behave in the workplace, you should certainly have some sort of diversity equality and inclusion policy, which sets out again, you know, how you do not discriminate against people, how you treat people equally with respect and dignity, etc. So having the right policies in place is really going to help because it sets the expectations. But beyond that, certainly should have training, regular training on diversity, equality and inclusion, and behave, you know, how we behave at work, essentially. And that's going to extend into those workplace events.

Richard Buckle 22:04

So I like when I when we were talking about this before, and I was thinking, Okay, what does that training look like? Just imagine in my head, I just went to this, like, you know, this like a bar, and everyone's like, what if doing, like, supervised drinking in like a Christmas party? Yeah. You know, Bob's there, you know, Bob, no one wants to you elephant impression this year.

Andrea Miller 22:23

Put it away Bob.

Richard Buckle 22:23

It was, it was never appropriate. It was never appropriate. But

Andrea Miller 22:27

it was funny 10 years ago, actually it wasn't We didn't like it then. Yeah, so I mean, you know, it doesn't have to be that specific as in when we go out, you may have two drinks, you may not use any swears. But you know, but actually, some policies will say that you don't curse on work events, because it can offend somebody, or can cause a grievance because somebody thinks that phrase, right, so I went to an event A while ago, a business event. And a couple of senior managers were totally mucking around and very lightheartedly, and this is going to sound much worse than it actually was kind of imitated a sex act on each other. And that does sound awful. It wasn't, it wasn't much more than twerking, put it that way. But if somebody at that event had found that really uncomfortable, and offensive, they could have a grievance for harassment, because as senior managers created a heightened, sexualized environment that somebody could be really uncomfortable with. And that could Yeah, that could that could lead to genuine grievance. So training people is genuinely it's kind of generally about how do we conduct ourselves in the workplace, it's different from how we conduct ourselves personally, well not for everybody. But you know, there's maintaining professionalism, respecting each other, being aware of and also, you know, making workplace events inclusive, is I know inclusivity is such a buzzword, I think these things get do go too far sometimes, but there's actually some really sensible advice in that in terms of, you know, don't always do your work events on a Friday evening, because that's going to exclude potentially your Jewish employees who tend to go to family night dinners on Fridays, or don't always have events that rotate around alcohol because that is could exclude people who don't drink and potentially for religious reasons. And you know, having different things on menus and just being aware of cultural differences and what is the makeup of your team as well and ensuring that you're not excluding anybody from these types of events, really important. So also, you know, before so you've got your policies in place, you'll have had your training, do then send out a memo beforehand, reminding people so it's those reminders of we've got the event coming up. We want everyone to have a brilliant time. However, you know, we don't want you to drink to excess we will be putting on taxis at a certain time to get you home. If you choose to go out that's on your own, you know, by your own means we can't stop you. But this is where for us it ends. It wasn't

Richard Buckle 22:48

Okay, so there's a definite end, there's a line in the sand,

Andrea Miller 25:10

It helps, yeah, it helps. And then think about actually at the event, how are your managers gonna behave, I'm already interesting thing that genuinely comes out in advice is don't take on a role at a party, or work event, that is your actual role. Which is sounds a bit odd. But if you if you're doing something that is like a normal part of your job, then it extends even further into what you do. So the vicarious liability is strengthened, and don't talk about work. So again, that just kind of moves it a little bit away. Because again, if you're, it strengthens that kind of work place, environment, you still got that duty of care, it's not going to go away. But it's, you know, it's much more social, and, and then something happens that is way out of your control, then, you know, it separates basically the two to an extent and have designated people who will be in charge of certain things. So maybe one of the managers is the person who looks out and make sure, Well hang on, Bob put you hand away Bob, or you know, that's five drinks, I think Bob is probably enough time to go home and have someone that is going to be that sort of take that chaperone role. So just ensure that things aren't getting out of hand.

Richard Buckle 26:36

It sounds like there's a part of this where you just think it's sounds like we're being killjoys a little bit, isn't it?

Andrea Miller 26:42

It does, and, you know, see Christmas party was it, as I said, you know, what happened at the Christmas party stays, Because party, everyone lets the hair down, and everyone's allowed to be a bit wild at the end of the year, you got the break, then because a lot of the time you have the party. And that's kind of walk of shame and the excruciating pain of what did I do last night, and you know your colleagues laughing at you is gone because you won't see them until the new year. But I think, yeah, we just have to be aware that actually times they are changing, and what was acceptable, even 10 years ago, just isn't now. And unfortunately, and it will comes back to the employers. So you might be just trying to do the best thing for your staff and giving them a really good night. But it's best to just really, really be aware of the pitfalls. And if you're putting everything in place. You can't absolutely control people, we know that. But if you're keen to get an employment tribunal is going to think okay, so what did you do to prevent that from happening, and if there's nothing else you could have done, so you've got the policy in place, you've trained people who have reminded them of how they should behave, you will emitted the amount of drinks that you will pay for as an employer, you've, you know, had people sort of designated to be the kind of, you know, the not the designated driver, but the designated civil people. Yeah. You know, what else could you have done? You can't absolutely control people, because they have their own minds, largely. But yeah, if you do all you can to sort of put those put those things in place. And it's gonna be looked on a lot more kindly if something does go awry.

Richard Buckle 28:23

And hopefully, that's not the case. For most people you have a party and it's, it's all good. It's a good time

Andrea Miller 28:30

Yeah, I've been to a party where there was a guy who punched a nose, he knew, he'd been there a few weeks and he lamped one of His colleagues, he got fired, obviously. And, you know, I don't know, I think largely gone are the days where you have these incredibly wild parties, but then we live in Shropshire and not the city and maybe things that I would think I would say, actually, in our environment, in terms of where largely our clients are, and you know, the people we tend to work with, I'm not seeing as an HR professional, a lot of these kinds of, you know, what you might think, for, particularly for Gen Xers, or someone who's not seeing these types of complaints come out, I'm not seeing a lot of grievances coming through that seem unreasonable. Most of the grievances that I deal with are either because sort of almost circumstantial, where maybe somebody has come to the end of their road with an employer. So they're putting a grievance back at them or all that it's a genuine grievance that really needs to be heard. But I'm not getting a lot of kind of, you know, eye roll. Oh, I can't believe that, you know, we're having to deal with this because just because somebody said something off the cuff. It might be in the cities that it's very different. But you know, most of my clients aren't city based. It doesn't mean that we can you know, Ignore, yeah, the the culture and environment that we are operating in. And I think it's really sensible to just air on the side of caution, and certainly put all the mitigations in place because it just protects you as an employer. 

Richard Buckle 30:12

So yeah, okay, so that's really good, then just to kind of refresher, isn't it that probably stuff that we all know. And it's common sense. And but as we approach the festive season rapidly, 15 weeks yesterday, I think till Christmas Day, that is just a timely reminder, I think for employers just to think about, okay, what is the culture looking like? What is the environment within your business? Are there any particular people or things that you need to watch out for,

Andrea Miller 30:41

and you know, what I, that's a really interesting one as well, sorry, just to pipe in again, because you will give training to everybody. But that doesn't mean that you can't single out specific people. And you should always pull people up on their behaviour as soon as that happens. So you know, that sort of that is something that I see with a lot of clients is that people are afraid to tackle behaviours, and they let them fester. So soon, as you see somebody saying, or doing something that you think is out of kilter with your code or code of conduct, you take them aside as soon as possible on their own. Tell them what happened. Tell them what should have happened, and what you'd like to happen in the future.

Richard Buckle 31:19

Well, that the standard of the standard of behaviour is always set by the leaders.

Andrea Miller 31:23

Yeah, absolutely.

Richard Buckle 31:24

So. So as a leader in a business, whatever level you're at, whether you're the owner or or senior management team, or, you know, shift manager, whatever your behaviours going to, it's going to massively influence how other people behave within the business.

Andrea Miller 31:39

Yeah, absolutely.

Richard Buckle 31:40

So when it comes to these work events, when it comes to these things, you've got to you've got to lead by example, you've got to, you've got to set the tone, set the standard. And that's that's how, you know, everyone else can see that you build in that authenticity, you building that trust, we know that our leaders aren't going to go out there and just make fools of themselves and do stuff they shouldn't. And they're not being hypocritical by doing stuff and then telling us not to. So as business, a business leader, you've got to, you've got to take the sort of, you've got to take the lead on that. And I think, yeah, this is just but there's stuff you can do around it to mitigate your risk, whether it's Christmas party, whether it's just being in the office, generally, whether it's going for a drink on a Friday after work. It's it's like okay, so how do we do that? So I think that's some valuable stuff you've given us today to think about and, you know, just if everyone remembers, think before you drink. 

Andrea Miller 32:33

Oh that's cheesy,

Richard Buckle 32:34

And so on that cheesy note, I shall say thank you very much for listening to this podcast. Remember to like and subscribe and tell all your business colleagues about The SME Growth Podcast, and until next time, and Dave's return, which I'm sure you will be waiting for. Goodbye and all the best with the businesses.